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Newbee.... Motor rebuild (tick-knock)
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Ruptured Duck



Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 59
Location: Gainseville Ga


PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:22 am    Post subject: Newbee.... Motor rebuild (tick-knock) Reply with quote

Needs some advise to a newbee.. Rolling Eyes

Been building and playing with Jeeps so VW's are a new direction for me. My son and I have been building his first car ( 1970 standard beetle). We are getting close to finishing it but I have a question regarding a ticking-knocking sound coming from the rebuilt motor. I know there are a lot of things that could be making the noise so I'll try to reduce options down.

I used a stethoscope to isolate the ticking-knock to the #2 area (top end). The noise happens on every rotation (used a timing light) so I know it's not the crank or rod. It sounds loudest just at the exhaust on #2. The stethoscope gives it a tap-tick matalic sound. It sounds like a knock when standing in front of the motor. I have adjusted the valves to .006" but wonder if I sound be setting them to .004". I just find it hard that a rocker could produce this loud of a knock. I honestly think it might be one of the following.

(1) piston installed in wrong direction
(2) Piston slap
(3) broken ring
(4) Hoping it might still just be valve adjustment....

Any help would be great!

Here is a link to the year long build. I posted this over on an off-road forum... Wink go figure?

http://offcamber4wd.org/forum/index.php?topic=6710.0
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serprice



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 349
Location: Statham

1974 Volkswagen Beetle

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could be in the rocker assebly itself. I had one like that a while back. It sounded like a valve but it was a rocker. The oil hole in that rocker was stopped up with slugde. I swapped it with another set and good as new. Thats a guess without actually hearing it. you can swap them left to right and see if the noise follows it. Cool
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74 standard beetle
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Ruptured Duck



Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 59
Location: Gainseville Ga


PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

serprice wrote:
It could be in the rocker assebly itself. I had one like that a while back. It sounded like a valve but it was a rocker. The oil hole in that rocker was stopped up with slugde. I swapped it with another set and good as new. Thats a guess without actually hearing it. you can swap them left to right and see if the noise follows it. Cool


Thanks... had someone else suggest that as well. After talking to a guy that owned a VW shop back in the 70's he thinks its piston slap... but felt it was worth checking the rocker assy first. Besides this little hick-up the project is going along OK... We lowered the front and narrowed it by 2.25" Needs to be a good DD for him but at the same time still cool. Don't know if the other teenagers will think a 40 year old car is cool?

We have also done a roll on paint job... I know there are some that will point out all the problems.... but so far the results are far better than we expected. For a little hard work and $200 it should turn out pretty good. The nice thing is that I can fix mistakes a lot easier and without stress. Great way to do your first paint job. This picture is after the first 600 grit wet sand and the 2nd coat rolled on. No other sanding has been done.

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Jon
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Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 2421
Location: Bishop GA

1969 Volkswagen Type 3

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks good. There is nothing wrong with the roll on and sand paint job. I've seen some really nice ones.

Welcome to our forums and good luck with your project.

Jon
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Ruptured Duck



Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 59
Location: Gainseville Ga


PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon wrote:
It looks good. There is nothing wrong with the roll on and sand paint job. I've seen some really nice ones.

Welcome to our forums and good luck with your project.

Jon


Thanks.... Like I said.. VW's are all new to me. Here is a picture of my CJ7. I make a living designing Jeep parts. It gets used hard . Rolled it twice and and it on it's side 3 times. Figure the VW would be a little safer for my son.
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JOHNB



Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 44
Location: Alto,GA

1967 Volkswagen Beetle

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey,like the bug and the jeep.Where are you located in gainesville.I work a hayes in oakwood.
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Ruptured Duck



Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 59
Location: Gainseville Ga


PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JOHNB wrote:
Hey,like the bug and the jeep.Where are you located in gainesville.I work a hayes in oakwood.


Off hwy 136 (Price Road) between Gainesville and Dawsonville. Im on the Hall county side just before you go over the first bridge heading towards 400...
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Ruptured Duck



Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 59
Location: Gainseville Ga


PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

serprice wrote:
It could be in the rocker assebly itself. I had one like that a while back. It sounded like a valve but it was a rocker. The oil hole in that rocker was stopped up with slugde. I swapped it with another set and good as new. Thats a guess without actually hearing it. you can swap them left to right and see if the noise follows it. Cool


Well swapped out the rocker arm assy last night and still have it. Got to be piston slap at this point...

I do have a question regarding the rubber seal for the rocker arm assy mounting studs. In my rebuild kit I only got small O-ring type seals but one of my manuals states that a flat seal should be used when the heads have a recess around the studs. What do these seals do in the first place? don't see any reason other than to reduce vibration or noise???
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Clyde



Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 855
Location: Athens


PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they keep oil from flowing down the threads of the rocker stud.
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serprice



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 349
Location: Statham

1974 Volkswagen Beetle

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, they dont do much. I've always used regular O rings on them. Did it have this noise before you built it? If you used a new piston/cylinder set, I doubt it's a piston slap. But I guess its possible.
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Ruptured Duck



Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 59
Location: Gainseville Ga


PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Motor had been sitting out of the bug for over 5yrs. When we rebuilt it everything was within spec.
This was a budget build so shortcut mistake dites me in the ......... I either assembled one wrong or I did not check it correctly.
No big deal.... When we pull it out we will replace with new 87mm jugs and pistons.
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Mountain Power House



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 879
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA


PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a wrsit pin bushing to me... Pistons installed backward will break in a very short period of time as the offset is .080
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Ruptured Duck



Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 59
Location: Gainseville Ga


PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mountain Power House wrote:
Sounds like a wrsit pin bushing to me... Pistons installed backward will break in a very short period of time as the offset is .080


Thanks... will check that first... No need to replace everything if all I need is new bushing or rod.

I can remove a rod to replace a bushing without cracking the case, correct? Just need to remove the jug from the opposite side and the rotate the crank.

I'm not sure if the rod will fit through the jug-case opening?
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Bruce Jacobs



Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Posts: 129
Location: Athens, GA


PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, the paint looks great! Please include pics when you get it all built up. My '65 will be needing paint (hopefully by spring) although it's in pieces now. I'm considering everything from HVLP to turbine sprayers to roll-on, or having someone else do it (last resort).

One question, though. Any problem with coverage? Ie, how do you get in all the nooks and crannies like the dash, luggage compartment, engine bay, etc.. Will you leave it at two coats? How'd you thin it? I've been following threads on Samba and such and there's a lot of opinions, but obviously your results are great!
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Ruptured Duck



Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 59
Location: Gainseville Ga


PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce Jacobs wrote:
Hey, the paint looks great! Please include pics when you get it all built up. My '65 will be needing paint (hopefully by spring) although it's in pieces now. I'm considering everything from HVLP to turbine sprayers to roll-on, or having someone else do it (last resort).

One question, though. Any problem with coverage? Ie, how do you get in all the nooks and crannies like the dash, luggage compartment, engine bay, etc.. Will you leave it at two coats? How'd you thin it? I've been following threads on Samba and such and there's a lot of opinions, but obviously your results are great!


Well... I'll hold off jumping up and down until its done. It's all about the correct ratio. When you roll it on the first time your first thought is "WTF have i done....!" There are all these little bubbles and it is so thin that you think there is no way this is going to work. It will take between 6-8 coats to get a full coverage. At each stage you will be wet sanding using 600 - 1200 grit paper. It is a slow going job because you let it dry over night, but thats the good part. You can paint as time allows. I also found out just how bad I was at the body work. If I had sprayed I would have been SOL. Rolling it on allowed me to stop. Let it dry and hit the spots that were not as straight as i would have liked them to be.
As for all the hard to get to spots.... I stripped the interior out and my son and I sprayed painted a metalic gray on the inside. We also used this inside the vents before we started to roll on the paint. The bad thing about the roll on paint is that you have very few colors to choose from. We went with the Smoke Gray and I added a pint can of gloss black to darken it up a bit.

This was never ever intended to be a show car... I wanted something fun for him to do and to get a taste of everything involved with a car. My hope is that we still come out with something great looking for under $2,000 invested (including the car).
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